1 (edited by delicate 2010-11-26 9:58:49)

Topic: Thank you for the Grow/shrink New option

Tysvm  wink  cool ,

By the way, i'm experiencing an issue .. .
With the shrink option if i shrink a side like the left or the right part,
the upper & part below are shrinked too .. .
If this isn't too hard, what would be amazing is an option
that would allow me to shrink depending on the mouse's
direction & not the 4 sides .. .

Also, i need to change the image gamma in the settings, i even tried to restart the application, & it's not working actually ... a beta issue ?

& is there a plugin that can allow me to add text without vectors,
something less heavy ? if not, i could still try the actual plugin
but i cannot download it from your website Michael .. .

Kind Regards

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Vinther
To: Roberto
Sent: Thursday, 25 November, 10 23:12 PM
Subject: Re: hi (a dream)


I have made some experiments with a new grow/shrink brush which you can try in the latest beta download (see http://meesoft.logicnet.dk/support/view … 4930#p4930 )


Re: Thank you for the Grow/shrink New option

If this isn't too hard, what would be amazing is an option
that would allow me to shrink depending on the mouse's
direction & not the 4 sides

Yes, I have been thinking about making something like this, but in my experience it is not really necessary in most cases. If e.g. you want to push an edge outwards you can simply drag with the mouse on the inside of the edge and then the effect above and below will be minimal.

Also, i need to change the image gamma in the settings

Exactly what are you trying to achieve with this? The gamma setting under the Options menu is the value used in various algorithms, e.g. resizing (see http://www.4p8.com/eric.brasseur/gamma.html). It you want to change the appearance of the active image you need to use the Histogram and color curves features.

Is there a plugin that can allow me to add text without vectors

The "Text and vector graphics" plugin is the only way. You don't have to add vectors smile  I know the web server is having some problems now and I can contacted the company running it so I hope it will be working again soon.

Michael Vinther

> software developer <

Re: Thank you for the Grow/shrink New option


"If e.g. you want to push an edge outwards you can simply drag with the mouse on the inside of the edge and then the effect above and below will be minimal."

You know it's not a solution, it's just an imperfect alternative, imagine if i shrink lips,
i can degrade the contrasts & luminosity bits, lips r often full of color infos ... . If
i take it from the outside to minimiz those lips, i shrink a part of the skin that
is less explicit & less agressive .. . if i do the complete reduction of lips,
id be reducing everything inside & destroying color contrasts, ending up
with a horror (( I could give u many other exemples, but like i told you
previously, if it's complicated, don't worry, my loss then ((

I used arcsoft photostudio v2.02SE since ages, & it was time to move on
for an editor up to date with plugin support. & there's a greater luminosity
for an identical image that i load in arcsoft, when image analizer shows less
luminosity. & i can't tell which editor respects the original colors ..... .

I thought changing the gamma, would fix image analyzer
i also could try anothr image editor & see which one is more
standard between ia, arcsoft & a third one .. .

& I know i can use the vector if i want or not, it's just useless data in the virtual memory
if i don't need it & only need the text feature, but if you don't know a 8bf plugin that
does it, nm


Re: Thank you for the Grow/shrink New option

If you want to shrink lips you should of cause drag the shrink tool inside the lips with a suitable radius. I can't really recognize these problems you are talking about. Perhaps I don't fully understand what you are trying to achieve but in this (rather stupid) example it seems to work fine:
http://logicnet.dk/ForumImages/Lips0.jpg http://logicnet.dk/ForumImages/Lips1.jpg
Here I used a brush which was perhaps 1½ times the width of the lips in the source image.

You could try if the Interpolate pen movement setting in the Brush shape drop down makes any difference.

IA displays the image exactly with the pixel values from the image file. On my computer images appear as in any other program. In the Window menu you can enable your monitor's color profile which might be what your other software does.

Michael Vinther

> software developer <

Re: Thank you for the Grow/shrink New option

I tried the monitor option & it doesn't change anything, so it's not related.
It'd be nice to fix the gamma functionality though, it's clearly not working in
this beta version. but i realized that ie6 displays the picture in the same
intensity as "ia" & that arcsoft adds a little more luminosity .. . I don't know
why .. . Maybe i'll keep the intensity of ia.

as for the shrinking tool, look at what happened to his teeth .. .

& i tried the interpolate option, it doesn't help, the idea is to shrink in one direction
that the mouse follows which respects anything on a circular area, i can do that with
a microscopic size of the tool to minimize the effect of what shouldn't be shrinked but
in the case, it would take forever ... .

Like i told you, if i'm asking you a difficult to conceive option, don't waste your
time on this.



Re: Thank you for the Grow/shrink New option

The gamma setting in IA works exactly as designed. It is not meant to change the visual appearance of the image but it controls how interpolation of pixel values are performed in various algorithms as described in the article I link to in my first answer.

as for the shrinking tool, look at what happened to his teeth

Yes, that is to be expected. When one part of the image is made to shrink, something else has to grow to fill the gap - otherwise there would be a hole in the image  wink When you use the shrink brush the center of the circle will shrink and the outer parts will grow, that is why you should make the tool size 1½ - 2 times the size of the item you wish to modify.
How else would you expect it to work? I would expect Photoshop to do the same. An alternative might be to use texture synthesis but I think that would be very hard to get better results with.

If you move the tool in a straight line it will actually only push inwards/outwards perpendicular to the movement direction, except for the ends of cause. Think of moving the Grow brush in a straight line through a single point. In the beginning, when you approach the point from one side it will be pushed away from the brush, but once you get past the point and moves away from it the point will be moved just as much in the opposite direction by the back side of the brush.
You can try it your self with this image:
Copy it to IA, zoom in so that it fills the screen and use the Grow brush. Now drag with the mouse a horizontal line (as horizontal as you can make it with the mouse...) from the black area in the left to the black area on the right. You will see that at first the lines are pushed away from the mouse but when you pass them they will be pushed back to their original position. This demonstrates that the tool does not change details that are perpendicular to the movement.
Note that this only works when Interpolate pen movement is enabled, because otherwise the power of the effect depends on how fast you move the mouse.

As long as you use only the grow/shrink tool the image quality is preserved, because when you activate the tool a copy of the image is made and every time you modify and area the new pixels in the area are computed from the original image. That is why you can push the same detail back and forward without loss of detail. This also means that if you click Grow four times on an area and the afterwards Shrink four times on exactly the same pixel the picture will be completely restored to the original.
When you use the normal undo button or activate any other brush or filter this source image will be discarded and changes are no longer lossless. That is also why I recommend using the undo brush (middle mouse button) instead of the normal undo history.

Michael Vinther

> software developer <

Re: Thank you for the Grow/shrink New option

lossless ?

are you trying to tell me that the undo of applied tool effects can affect the original
image quality ?? if yes, the history's undo function should be linked to alternative tool's undo modes .. . that doesn't make even much sense to me ((

I understand your point about dragging one part & an appearing hole
if the other side didn't follow .. .

I also guess i expected too much from that tool, but it can still be helpful
if i spend a lot of time on it, i can expect very good results, it's not magic
but it still remains a great tool  wink

ppl would have to install 250mb or more of data from photoshop
to use a tool like this & compared to many other image editors,
ia is a light weighted & memory friendly application ))

By the way, it'd be nice if you add tga & pcd support

thank you


Re: Thank you for the Grow/shrink New option

This is quite hard to explain...
The normal "undo" is really undo and the image will be fully restored. Where you will loss quality is if you do a lot of changes with grow/shrink brush and in between these changes uses the normal undo. This is because each undo will reset the tool's internal "cache". If you use the tool's own undo function this will not happen.
And yes, you are right, it would be a better solution to enable the normal undo function to store this data also, but this would require some changes to IA's internal infrastructure that would take much more time to implement so this is why I made this other solution instead. Adding just one new tool is a fairly "safe" operation because there is little chance of breaking any other functionality in the program whereas making these changes would be at a higher risk. Perhaps some day I will spend the time it takes, but as long as this is a free application that I'm not making any money on and I think the current solution is working fairly well once you learn to use it, I have little motivation to change it...

Michael Vinther

> software developer <

Re: Thank you for the Grow/shrink New option

ok Michael, thanks for all & i hope to see more image format supports
in the near future like tga & pcd proposed above in the previous

cheers  smile


Re: Thank you for the Grow/shrink New option

... but i cannot download it from your website Michael ...

The plugin downloads should be working again

Michael Vinther

> software developer <


Re: Thank you for the Grow/shrink New option

I have just added another tool with functionality similar to the Grow/shrink brush - a Warp brush that lets you drag a feature in the picture. Again, the brush size determines the area of the image which is modified.

This is available in the latest beta.

Michael Vinther

> software developer <

Re: Thank you for the Grow/shrink New option

That's interesting while the shrink feature messes with pixels in 360°, the warp follows a lot more the arrow's direction to modify the desired area .. . but the shrink feature is less invasive
& add less unrequested contrast warp .. . ))

I have two other requests if that ain't complicated:

- Modification of Alt+Backspace (undos) to Ctrl+Z

- Zoomers are often ugly .. . & the one used in imagea is distorted like crunched
in the middle of the circle, the circle is very irregular which makes it ugly. it'd be cool
if you could replace it with that one: http://www.outillage-online.fr/e_commer … o_zoom.gif

But that zoom icon should be 1) inversed 2) all the white par surrounding it removed
& the white "half circle" replaced by invisibility

It's hard to find a clean & beautiful zoom icon, if you're willing to replace it,
i can try to transform it to *.ico with the needed modifications or any other
extension depending on what extension you use before incorporating it
to the executable .. .

Those both changes are minor but i find it really ugly ((

Like the useless grey part of the photos & application's tittle windows .. .
But that's another story )) I think the empty space when no pic is loaded
is grey enough to add more grey in the application's tittle window ))


Re: Thank you for the Grow/shrink New option

Ctrl+Z should work as undo - at least it works for me.

Actually I find many of the icons ugly and the Zoom icon is definitely not the worst. It is not that easy to find free icons for everything and I'm not very good at drawing myself..

Michael Vinther

> software developer <

Re: Thank you for the Grow/shrink New option

I'm not criticizing you lol
Your aim is programation, of course you have an interest in the design of your application,
but programmers usually don't like to waste their time seeking the best icons and themes
for their applications.

When you say "it's not easy", i agree with you, i had to crawl all webpages of available &
unzipped data information like:
in the image field of google, & i've crawled all the pages before finding the one proposed above, just to show you that it took me a while to find a decent one too, but it's worth the wasted time, because it's an appropriate image editor for me & something i'll use forever, taking 20 minutes or more to find a nice icon worths it.

& it's true, there's worse than the zoom icon, but that icon floats over images & around &
it degrades the splendor of some images, like a stain on a screen lol

i'm not good at drawing either, at all, but i like perfection, & i can use an icon editor
to transform the superfluous pixels to transparence in the gif i proposed you.

If you're up for the change of the zoomer, let me know, i'll be glad to clean
that zoom icon i proposed you & send it to you in the format you need.

.ico .gif .ani .cur


Re: Thank you for the Grow/shrink New option

Just to be sure - are you talking about the toolbar icon or the mouse cursor? The mouse cursor is much worse than the icon...
As far as I remember I had some problems making customized cursors in color the last time I tried but that was many years ago so perhaps I could try again.

Are you sure that the icon you link to is actually free? I need to make sure that I'm allowed to use it.

Michael Vinther

> software developer <

16 (edited by delicate 2011-01-05 10:19:41)

Re: Thank you for the Grow/shrink New option

I was referring myself to the "zoom" cursor, that can be dragged anywhere on pictures to enlarge or reduce the size .. .

But you're right, that one is worse than the zoom icon of of the toolbar.
That's why i wanted a different one but .. . if we can add the one above,
adding it to the toolbar as well, would make sense & would make it look
cleaner ))

The icon i listed above in a url seems to belong to a web developer:
http://www.outillage-online.fr/e_commer … o_zoom.gif

the french site "outillage-online.fr" sells tools for house constructors .. .
& the icon is included in their host:
http://www.outillage-online.fr/e_commer … o_zoom.gif

But the hoster is naturally, someone else.

I don't think they'll ever bother you if they find out you used it,
moreover, since i have to invert the icon, cause it's on the wrong
side, & add transparance, the icon itself will be modified, they're not
supposed to know and detect that icon is their icon lol

I don't think people track their own pointer icons in thousands of
softwares online.

We could get a silence, or a no, if i ask the hoster gently if we could
use that icon, if we get a silence, they may track ur application to see
if u did it after no given answer.

I suggest u use it without asking them, & it'll be modified anyways,
it's color, since it's inverted & retouched a little, there's not a lot
of pixel infos, i can't consider it as a direct thief or the use of
a private property.

it's like for computers, there are many computers that look
"quite" the same in terms of design .. .

Well, that's my suggestion, but if you really think we should
ask, we'll face the risk of silence or refusal.

it's up to you lol

tell me what to do, if we don't ask, i'll start modifying it &
send it to you. otherwise, i'll email the hoster through whois
services .. .

If i modify it without asking, a good precaution would be to
delete all messages posted in this forum since :

"2011-01-02 8:31:52"

After i've read your next reply & answered it.

Then i should rather email you directly.